Saturday, November 25, 2006

John Perry - (1799-1855)

Photo of Benbow Pond

The following is a history of one of my ancestors, John Perry. This history was written by Hope J. Krum, and was submitted to the Daughters of the Utah Pioneers. Sources for this history are: A history written by Edith Folsome Hatch and the Diary of Amelia Hatch Jackson.

JOHN PERRY

John Perry was born 22 June 1799 in Bishoptown, Herefordshire, England. He resided in the locality of his birth, where he became a master carpenter, cabinet maker and wheelwright and had several apprentices under his supervision.

John married Grace Ann Williams who was born 2 May 1801 (some records show 21 February) in Ashperton, Herefordshire, England to James and Sarah Williams. (You can read a history of Grace Ann Williams here.)

John and Grace Ann resided in the neighborhood of her birth after their marriage. They had nine (some sources say seven or eight) children being born there. They were: James, Elizabeth, Grace, Eliza Ann, Thomas, Alice, William, Elizabeth Melissa (my great grandmother) and John. The members of this family took a prominent part in the religious activities of the community. They were members of a society, numbering more that six hundred, known as the United Brethren. These' good people had broken off from the Wesleyan Methodist Church and organized themselves for the purpose of studying the scriptures, as they were not satisfied with the teachings of the ministers of the mother church. They had forty-five licensed ministers and several chapels. John Perry with seven years service to his credit was one of these ministers. They were constantly pleading with the Lord to send them more light and knowledge.

When Wilford Woodruff was on a mission in England he had a inspiration to go south. He visited that locality in 1840, he found the group known as the United Brethren to be earnest, sincere souls. (You can read from Elder Woodruff's Journal about his experience with the United Brethren here.) Elder Woodruff preached the gospel of salvation to these people and John Perry first heard the gospel on March 5, 1840; and was baptized March 8 by Wilford Woodruff He was one of the first six to be baptized in the pool on the property of Mr. John Benbow. Soon after his baptism, John was ordained an elder of the church by Brigham Young. Grace Ann Williams Perry was baptized 27 March 1840, also in the pool on the John Benbow Hill Farm, where more that six hundred of their religious associates received baptism at the hands of Elder Woodruff.

Several of the Perry children died previous to the family's departure from their home in Ashperton, Herefordshire, England. However, when the two-hundred souls, who formed the second group of foreign Mormon immigrants, sailed from Liverpool, on Monday September 8, 1840, John Perry, his wife Grace , their three daughters, Eliza, Alice, and Elizabeth Melissa, and their sons, William (or James?) and John, were numbered among them. This company in the charge of Theodore Turley sailed on the ship, North America, and they arrived in Nauvoo on 24 November 1840.

One of their severest trials befell them while they were yet upon the water. Their son, William, died and was buried on Staten Island. Upon reaching Nauvoo, John's ability as master carpenter and joiner was soon discovered and appreciated, thus he was assigned some of the most technical work on the temple. Grace was always found busily engaged with the other sisters, providing for the women and helping the people of the community.

While in Nauvoo, their son John, and daughter, Alice both died. This left but two children, Eliza Ann and Elizabeth Melissa. Elizabeth Melissa Perry was baptized in the Mississippi River 18 May 1845. John Perry and his wife Grace Ann Williams received their endowments in the Nauvoo Temple 21 January 1846. John was also ordained a Seventy in the Nauvoo Temple.
The Saints were happy and contented in their new home, but not for long. The grumblings of Satan were heard again and the Perry family began preparations to accompany the Saints in their quest for a new home.

Upon being driven from Nauvoo in the spring of 1846, John, Grace and their daughter, Elizabeth Melissa, accompanied the other Saints to Winter Quarters, arriving the later part of August or early September. Eliza Ann had married Ezra T. Benson and joined the company where he was a member. (she was later the mother of seven children.) John Perry was fully occupied in helping to erect shelters for his own family and other Saints. Afterwards, he assisted in preparing conveyances in which the Saints could Cross the plains. By June 14, 1847 they were camped on the Elkhorn River where they were assigned to Charles Rich's company with Edward Stove as captain. On Thursday June 17, 1847 they were organized and ready to start their westward journey which began June 19, 1847. It would seem slow and arduous to us but it was very satisfying to the persecuted Saints. The company traveled an average of ten miles a day, never failing to leave messages and signs along the way, that others might find them and thus have an easier journey.

What rejoicing there was in the camp when the Saints were visited by brethren who were returning from the Rocky Mountains to the Mississippi to assist other stricken Saints. Such unity and brotherly love as existed would be highly valuable in our day.

The company in which the Perry family traveled, arrived at the Old Fort on October 3, 1847, this being the ninth company to arrive at the Great Salt Lake Valley. The family remained in the fort during the winter of 1847-48 and early in April 1848 they joined the families of Peregrin and Jezereal (Jesreal) Shoemaker in settling the country known as Sessions settle (later Bountiful), remaining in that immediate neighborhood, where they cultivated the soil and fought the crickets at the time the Saint's miraculous help from the seagulls. In 1849 the family was informed that Brigham Young wished them to go assist in the settlement of the country south. Always obedient to counsel, they loaded up their belongings and went to Salt Lake City where President Brigham Young told them that they had been misinformed, and advised them to go back to Session's Settlement. While retracing their steps they found a beautiful spring surrounded by some splendid land and decided to locate in that place, and later acquired the title to homestead adjacent to this spring. It is located some eight miles north of Salt Lake City.

During late summer and early fall of 1849, John Perry built a log cabin near the spring; thus providing a home for his wife Grace Ann and their daughter, Elizabeth Melissa. In the spring of 1850, John was appointed to preside over the Saints in the southern part of Session's Settlement and he held this position until his release in the fall of 1852. On September 8, 1850, he was sustained as a member of the first stake high council in Utah.

The family was always hospitable and charitable in their attitude toward others who came into the neighborhood and through uniting together were able to provide the necessities of life for themselves and also assistance to others.

At a special conference held in Salt Lake City, on 28 August 1852 John was called to fill a mission in Great Britian, for which he departed the same fall, September 15, 1952, thus leaving Grace Ann Perry alone in a strange land. She never wavered in her determination to truly be her husband's helpmate, so bravely she assumed the responsibility of managing farm affairs, a task to which she was not accustomed. She never failed to write encouraging letters, no matter what conditions were at home. Her integrity and faith were characteristics of common knowledge among her neighbors.
John Perry arrived in England in January of 1853 and was assigned to labor in Herefordshire. On June 7, 1854, he was appointed to preside over the Wiltshire Conference, which position he held until he was released in the spring of 1855.

One day while attending to her household duties, Grace happened to glance out the door and was surprised to see a tree standing in the pasture some distance from the house. She realized immediately that there was no tree in that location so decided to investigate the phenomenon. As she approached the spot she saw a man standing beneath the tree. The apparition then disappeared and she returned to the house meditating upon the significance of the affair. She was not to learn of its meaning until the next company of immigrants entered the valley, and brought her word of her husband's death.

Upon being released from his labors, on May 5, 1855, Brother Perry sailed from Liverpool with a large company of Saints on the ship, Curling. Upon arriving in America, he was appointed captain of a company of Saints, but upon reaching Mormon Grove, Kansas he was stricken with cholera and after eight hours of illness he passed to the great beyond. He was gifted as a singer and one who was with him at Mormon Grove relates that he spent several hours singing hymns just prior to his death. Upon comparing the time of his demise and the time of the apparition she found them to be the same, 18 July 1855.

John Perry was well built and of average height. He was very particular concerning his personal appearance and always looked very genteel. He was very strong in character, exacting, yet happy and congenial.

Their daughter, Elizabeth Melissa, married Orin Hatch, also a pioneer of the community, on 10 October 1855 and this couple made their home on the Perry homestead where Orin relieved Sister Perry of her responsibilities of the farm work. (Elizabeth Melissa received her endowments 14 November 1855 in the Endowment House, and was sealed to Orin Hatch the same day by Brigham Young.) They were the parents of thirteen children.

One of their daughters, Amelia Elizabeth Hatch, recorded in her diary that when they received the cloths of her Grandfather John Perry, after his death that there were some apple seeds in the pocket of his coat. They planted them and they were the best eating apples in the area. They never canned any apples from that tree as they were so good eating fresh.

John Perry was a great missionary and has many hundreds of descendants and I am proud to be one of his great-great grand daughters.


Information from history written by Edith Folsome Hatch and Diary of Amelia Hatch Jackson.
Written by Hope Jackson Krum

Grace Ann Williams (1801-1873)

The Following is a history of one of my ancestors, Grace Ann Williams. This history was written by Edith Folsome Hatch.


Grace Ann Williams
Born: 2 Feb 1801 at Aspherton, Herefordshire, England
Died: 14 Nov 1873 at South Bountiful, Davis County, Utah
Father: James Williams
Mother: Sarah Williams

On the 2nd day of Feb. 1801, into a good but unpretentious house, in Ashperton, Herefordshire, England, a beautiful dark eyed baby girl came to bless the lives of the family of James and Sarah Williams.

This child was destined to become one of God's noble women, a savior of her parents and loved ones, an influence for the enrichment of the lives of many persons who were to come into contact with her and the progenitor of a great and worthy posterity. This child enjoyed a normal happy childhood, surrounded by parents, brothers and sisters and respectable neighbors and friends; always exhibiting a preference for the good and ennobling things of life.

She grew into a stately young woman, slightly above average height, whose early years were filled with the homely tasks, customary to the young women of her day. Sewing, knitting, baking, she became an excellent house wife, proficient in all of the duties of the home. Her keen dark, kindly eyes, held attention of all who met her. In the course of time she met her ardent admirer and lover, John Perry of Castle Fromes, Herefordshire, England, to whom she was later married. (You Can read a history of John Perry here.) They resided resided in the neighborhood of her birth where the following children were born; James, Elizabeth, Grace, Eliza Ann, Thomas, Alice, William, Elizabeth Melissa and John.

The members of this family were very sincere people, who took a prominent part in the religious activities of the community, and while Wilford Woodruff visited that locality in 1840, he found them members of the group known as the United Brethren; earnest, sincere souls who had banded together to seek more light concerning the Lord's will in regard to his earthly children. Elder Woodruff preached the gospel of salvation to these people and Grace Ann Williams Perry was one of the first persons to recognize it as the Iight for which she bad been seeking. She accepted the Gospel and was baptized March 27, 1840, in the pool on the John Benbow Farm, where more than six hundred of her religious associates also received baptism at the hands of Elder Wilford Woodruff. This number included forty-five ministers; her husband being one of them.

This family had the misfortune to lose three of their children while living at Ashperton, Herefordshire, England, but when the two hundred souls who formed the second group of foreign Mormon emigrants sailed from Liverpool, Monday September 8,1840, the father, mother, two sons and three daughters, were numbered among them. This company, in charge of Theodore Turley, sailed on the ship "North America" and arrived at Nauvoo, 24 November 1840.

One of their severest trials befell them while they were yet upon the water. Their son died and was buried at Staten Island. Upon reaching Nauvoo the father's ability as a master carpenter and joiner was soon discovered and appreciated, thus he was assigned some of the most technical work on the Temple. The wife was always found busily engaged with the other sisters, providing for the workmen and helping the people of the community.

While at Nauvoo, their daughter Alice, and another son, were taken from them by death, thus leaving but two children to them; their oldest daughter Eliza Ann, and youngest daughter, Elizabeth Melissa

The Saint's contentedness and happiness were short lived for the grumblings of Satan were heard again and the Perry family was obliged to make preparations to accompany the Saints in their quest for a new home.

Grace Ann Williams and her husband received their endowments in the Nauvoo Temple 21 January, 1846.

Upon being driven from Nauvoo, the Peny's camped on the Elkhorn River where they were assigned to Charles C. Rich's Guard, with Edward Stevenson as Captain, and on Thursday, June 17, 1847 they were organized and ready to begin their westward trek: seemingly a slow arduous journey to us;, but very satisfying to the persecuted Saints. The company traveled an average of about ten miles each day, never failing to leave messages and signs along the route that others following might find them and thus make their journey easier.

What rejoicing there was in the camp when the Saints were visited by the brethren who were returning from the Rocky Mountains, to the Missouri to assist other stricken Saints. Such unity and brotherly love as existed at that time would be highly appreciated in our day.

Eliza, the eldest daughter, married Elder Ezra T. Benson and joined the company of which he was member; this left the parents without one child to accompany them to the valley.

The company in which Grace Ann Williams Perry and her family traveled arrived at the Old Fort on October 3,1847 being the ninth company to enter the Great Salt Lake Valley. This family remained in the Fort during the winter of 1847-48 and early in April 1848 they joined the families of Peregrin Sessions, Jezreal Shoemaker and two others in settling the country known as Sessions Settlement, remaining in that immediate neighborhood, where they cultivated the soil and fought the crickets at the time of the saints' miraculous deliverance by the Seagulls. In the summer of 1849, the family was informed that Pres. Brigham Young wished them to go and assist in the settlement of the country to the south. Always obedient to council, they loaded up their belongings and went to Great Salt Lake City where Pres. Brigham Young told them that they had been misinformed and advised them to go back to Sessions' Settlement. While retracing their steps they found a beautiful spring surrounded by some splendid looking land and decided to locate at that place, later acquiring the title to a homestead adjacent to this spring. It is located some eight miles north of Salt Lake City and about three quarters of a mile south of the present O.S.L. Depot at Woods Cross (1939). Here, during late summer and early fall of 1849 John Perry built a log cabin, near the spring, thus providing a home for his wife Grace Ann and their daughter Elizabeth Melissa.

The family was always hospitable and charitable in their attitude toward others who came into the neighborhood and through their untiring efforts were able to provide the necessities of life, for themselves and also render assistance to others.

At a special conference held at Great Salt Lake City, August 18, 1852, the husband was called to fill a mission in Great Britain, for which he departed the same fall, thus leaving Sister Perry a virtual widow in a strange land. She never wavered in her determination to truly be her husband's helpmate, so bravely assumed the responsibility of managing the faun affairs, a task to which she was not accustomed. She never failed, no matter what conditions were at home, to write him encouraging letters. Her integrity and faith were characteristic of common knowledge among her neighbors.

One day while attending to her household duties she happened to glance out of the door and was surprised to see a tree standing in the pasture some distance from the house. She realized immediately that there was no tree in that locality, so decided to investigate the phenomenon. As she approached the spot she saw a man standing beneath the tree. The apparition then. disappeared and she returned to the house meditating upon the significance of the affair: She was not to learn its meaning until the next company of emigrants entered the valley, when word of her husband's death was brought to her.

Upon being released from his labors, Brother Perry, who was in charge of a company of English emigrants, had reached Mormon Grove, Kansas on his homeward journey. Here several of the company were stricken with Cholera, he being among the number , and after only eight hours illness he died and was buried beneath a tree. Upon comparing the date and time of his demise and the time of the appearance of the apparition she found them to be the same, July 18, 1835.

The daughter Elizabeth Melissa married Orin Hatch, also a Pioneer of the community November 10, 1855 and this couple made their home on the Perry homestead where Brother Hatch relieved Sister Perry of her responsibilities of the farm work. She lived with them at this place until her death, always desirous of continuing in the work of the Lord and determined to accomplish all that he wished of her.

Those who knew her, described her as a person a little above average height, very imposing almost aristocratic appearance, rather good looking, regular features, with keen, kindly, dark eyes and brown hair, who was extremely particular of her personal appearance. She had little to say but what she did say had great weight. Her charitable acts were legion and consisted mainly in the assistance rendered the new arrivals in the neighborhood.
Many of the people community, state that through the assistance given them by her, their people were able to establish themselves in homes of their own. She was strictly honest and would not countenance dishonesty in any dealings of her family. Thoroughly appreciating the good in others, she made every effort possible to see that each person had a fair chance.

Although Grace Ann Williams Perry so readily accepted the Gospel, she was unable to convince the members of her immediate family of its truthfulness and although her efforts in that direction were continued throughout her life, were of no avail and she remained the only one to be a Savior on Mr. Zion to them. Her mother lived to more than one hundred years of age and was still unfavorable at her death.

Grace strictly adhered to the principles and doctrines of the Church.

Her death occurred November 14, 1873, at her home in South Bountiful, Davis County, Utah.

Her descendants are eight children, twenty ,one grandchildren and the later generations are numbered in hundreds.

She was truly one of Our Father's noblest daughters.

Submitted to Daughters of the Utah Pioneers by: Mabel Peterson on 5 Feb 2003

The United Brethren

One of my Ancestors, John Perry, was a preacher among a religious group called The United Brethren in Herefordshire, England. In March of 1840, Wilford Woodruff came into their area to Preach the restored gospel. You can read a history of John Perry here.

Here are some excerpts from Wilford Woodruff's journal, regarding his experience with the United Brethren.




Excerpts from Wilford Woodruff’s Journal
On His Mission to the United Brethren

From Wilford Woodruff, His Life and Labors, comp. Matthias F. Cowley [Salt Lake City: Deseret News, 1916], pp 116-120.)

"March 1st, 1840, was my birthday; I was thirty-three years of age. It being Sunday, I preached twice during the day to a large assembly in the city hall, in the town of Hanley, and administered the Sacrament to the Saints. In the evening I again met with a large assembly of the Saints and strangers, and while singing the first hymn the spirit of the Lord rested upon me and the voice of God said to me, 'This is the last meeting that you will hold with this people for many days.' I was astonished at this, as I had many appointments out in that district. When I arose to speak to the people, I told them that it was the last meeting I should hold with them for many days. They were as much astonished as I was. At the close of the meeting four persons came forward for baptism; we went down into the water and baptized them.

"In the morning I went in secret before the Lord, and asked Him what was His will concerning me. The answer I received was that I should go to the south; for the Lord had a great work for me to perform there, as many souls were waiting for His word. On the 3rd of March, 1840, in fulfillment of the directions given me, I took coach and rode to Wolverhampton, twenty-six miles, spending the night there. On the morning of the 4th I again took coach, and rode through Dudley, Stourbridge, Stourport, and Worcester, then walked a number of miles to Mr. John Benbow's, Hill Farm, Castle Frome, Ledbury, Herefordshire. This was a farming country in the south of England, a region where no elder of the Latter-day Saints had visited.

“I found Mr. Benbow to be a wealthy farmer, cultivating three hundred acres of land, occupying a good mansion, and having plenty of means. His wife, Jane, had no children. I presented myself to him as a missionary from America, an elder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who had been sent to him by the commandment of God as a messenger of salvation, to preach the gospel of life to him and his household and the inhabitants of the land. He and his wife received me with glad hearts and thanksgiving. It was in the evening when I arrived, having traveled forty-eight miles by coach and on foot during the day, but after receiving refreshments we sat down together, and conversed until two o'clock in the morning. Mr. Benbow and his wife rejoiced greatly at the glad tidings which I brought them.

"I also rejoiced greatly at the news Mr. Benbow gave me, that there was a company of men and women—over six hundred in number—who had broken off from the Wesleyan Methodists, and taken the name of United Brethren. They had forty-five preachers among them, and for religious services had chapels and many houses that were licensed according to the law of the land. This body of United Brethren were searching for light and truth, but had gone as far as they could, and were calling upon the Lord continually to open the way before them and send them light and knowledge, that they might know the true way to be saved. When I heard these things I could clearly see why the Lord had commanded me, while in the town of Hanley, to leave that place of labor and go to the south; for in Herefordshire there was a great harvest-field for gathering many saints into the Kingdom of God. After offering my prayers and thanksgiving to God, I retired to my bed with joy, and slept well until the rising of the sun.

"I arose on the morning of the 5th, took breakfast, and told Mr. Benbow I would like to commence my Master's business by preaching the gospel to the people. He had in his mansion a large hall which was licensed for preaching, and he sent word through the neighborhood that an American missionary would preach at his house that evening. As the time drew nigh, many of the neighbors came in, and I preached my first gospel sermon in the house. I also preached at the same place on the following evening, and baptized six persons, including Mr. John Benbow, his wife, and four preachers of the United Brethren. I spent most of the following day in clearing out a pool of water and preparing it for baptizing, as I saw that many would receive that ordinance. I afterwards baptized six hundred persons in that pool of water.

"On Sunday, the 8th, I preached at Frome's Hill in the morning, at Standley Hill in the afternoon, and at John Benbow's, Hill Farm, in the evening. The parish church that stood in the neighborhood of Brother Benbow's, presided over by the rector of the parish, was attended during the day by only fifteen persons, while I had a large congregation, estimated to number a thousand, attend my meetings through the day and evening.

"When I arose to speak at Brother Benbow's house, a man entered the door and informed me that he was a constable, and had been sent by the rector of the parish with a warrant to arrest me. I asked him, 'For what crime?' He said, 'For preaching to the people.' I told him that I, as well as the rector, had a license for preaching the gospel to the people, and that if he would take a chair I would wait upon him after meeting. He took my chair and sat beside me. For an hour and a quarter I preached the first principles of the everlasting gospel. The power of God rested upon me, the spirit filled the house, and the people were convinced. At the close of the meeting I opened the door for baptism, and seven offered themselves. Among the number were four preachers and the constable. The latter arose and said, 'Mr. Woodruff, I would like to be baptized.' I told him I would like to baptize him. I went down into the pool and baptized the seven. We then came together. I confirmed thirteen, administered the Sacrament, and we all rejoiced together.

"The constable went to the rector and told him that if he wanted Mr. Woodruff taken for preaching the gospel, he must go himself and serve the writ; for he had heard him preach the only true gospel sermon he had ever listened to in his life. The rector did not know what to make of it, so he sent two clerks of the Church of England as spies, to attend our meeting, and find out what we did preach. They both were pricked in their hearts, received the word of the Lord gladly, and were baptized and confirmed members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The rector became alarmed, and did not venture to send anybody else.

"The ministers and rectors of the south of England called a convention and sent a petition to the Archbishop of Canterbury, to request Parliament to pass a law prohibiting the Mormons from preaching in the British dominions. In this petition the rectors stated that one Mormon missionary had baptized fifteen hundred persons, mostly members of the English Church, during the past seven months. But the Archbishop and council, knowing well that the laws of England afforded toleration to all religions under the British flag, sent word to the petitioners that if they had the worth of souls at heart as much as they valued ground where hares, foxes, and hounds ran, they would not lose so many of their flock.

"I continued to preach and baptize daily. On the 21st day of March I baptized Elder Thomas Kington. He was superintendent of both preachers and members of the United Brethren. The first thirty days after my arrival in Herefordshire, I had baptized forty-five preachers and one hundred and sixty members of the United Brethren, who put into my hands one chapel and forty-five houses, which were licensed according to law to preach in. This opened a wide field for labor, and enabled me to bring into the Church, through the blessings of God, over eighteen hundred souls during eight months, including all of the six hundred United Brethren except one person. In this number there were also some two hundred preachers of various denominations. This field of labor embraced Herefordshire, Gloucestershire, and Worcestershire, and formed the conferences of Garway, Gadfield Elm, and Frome's Hill. During this time I was visited by President Young and Dr. Richards."

On the 14th of April, 1840, Elder Woodruff records the ordination of Willard Richards to the apostleship. Two days later the Twelve, in council, voted to publish a Church periodical in Great Britain. Elder Woodruff proposed that it be called the Millennial Star, and it was so named.
"Brother John Benbow furnished us with L300 to print the first edition of the Book of Mormon that was published in England," wrote Elder Woodruff; "and on the 20th of May, 1840, Brigham Young, Willard Richards, and I held a council on top of Malvern Hill, and there decided that Brigham Young should go direct to Manchester and publish three thousand copies of the Book of Mormon and the Hymn Book.

"The power of God rested upon us and upon the mission," said Elder Woodruff, in our field of labor in Herefordshire, Worcestershire, and Gloucestershire. "The sick were healed, devils were cast out, and the lame made to walk. One case I will mention: Mary Pitt, who died later in Nauvoo, sister of William Pitt, who died years after in Salt Lake City, had not walked upon her feet for eleven years. We carried her into the water, and I baptized her. On the evening of the 18th of May, 1840, at Brother Kington's house in Dymock, Elders Brigham Young, Willard Richards, and I laid hands upon her head and confirmed her. Brigham Young being mouth, rebuked her lameness in the name of the Lord, and commanded her to arise and walk. The lameness left her, and she never afterwards used a staff or crutch. She walked through the town of Dymock next day, and created a stir among the people thereby; but the wicked did not feel to give God the glory.

"The whole history of this Herefordshire mission shows the importance of listening to the still small voice of the spirit of God, and the revelations of the Holy Ghost. The people were praying for light and truth, and the Lord sent me to them. I declared the gospel of life and salvation, some eighteen hundred souls received it, and many of them have been gathered to Zion in these mountains. Many of them have also been called to officiate in the bishopric, and have done much good in Zion. In all these things we should ever acknowledge the hand of God, and give Him the honor, praise, and glory, forever and ever. Amen.